well, this is my first post. might as well make it a doozy.

i'm disturbed by the responses the woman who asked about femme/femme relationships got. first of all, how did a thread about femmes get hijacked into butch bashing? she wanted to talk about femme/femme relationships, not how butches aren't real women.

secondly, just cuz you don't find butch women hot doesn't mean they aren't. sounds like something a bunch of rude men would say: "ew [butch] dykes are ugly/scary/misguided/delusional!" gee, thanks for the input. dykes don't exist to please men, and butches don't exist to please you. if you don't like how other women present themselves, don't look.

and if you want to talk about boxes, how about we talk about respecting each other's identities. if someone wants to put herself in a "box," what gives anyone the right to put her in a different one? if i say i'm a butch dyke, and that means i'm a masculine WOMAN who is attracted to women, other dykes don't get to say i want to be a man any more than jim bob with the mullet gets to say "you're not really a dyke, you just haven't found the right guy yet." it seems to me the people who are actually insecure in their gender identities are the ones who spend all their time policing everyone else's.
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bluejean
offline bluejean
Philadelphia
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  • Sonya
    Sonya
    offline 68

    Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

    Tue, October 24, 2006 - 4:05 PM
    Jean,

    Don't let a couple of bad apples get you down. People (women, lesbians, anyone included) have a way of putting down and/or invalidating things they don't understand.

    I'd be the first to say, as a femme-attracted femme, that I'm not attracted to masculine energy, or that I even don't understand the attraction, but you'd never catch me saying (or even thinking!) that there therefore can't be anything sexy or worthwhile about butch women. There were definitely some things said in that thread that were way out of bounds. :-(

    Non-gender-normative behavior is just one of those things...some people are just ignorant about it and just end up lumping all of it in with full-blown transsexualism, which (as you already know, I'm sure ;-) ) is another animal entirely.

    As an MtF dyke, believe me when I tell you I understand about the "REAL Woman™ Police".

    So, like I said, don't let 'em get you down, and be ready to keep having to explain things to people until you're blue in the face, despite this allegedly being the 21st Century, "all enlightened," and all that BS.

    *hugs*
    -Sonya
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    • blue...
      bluejean
      offline 1

      Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

      Tue, October 24, 2006 - 7:12 PM
      thanks for the response. i figured there were other people reading the ugly comments and feeling attacked, so i thought i would offer a strenuous objection to counter them. :)

      i am sure you have extensive experience with the Real Woman police! the stupid thing is, i think a lot of people who identify as dykes have encounters with it all the time, even if they are more on the gender normative end of things. the stereotype of the ugly hairy dyke might be based on people like me, but it's applied to all of us at some time or another. it's sad that it's so easy for a us to reproduce the phenomenon and use it against each other.
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      • Beth
        Beth
        offline 26

        Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

        Wed, October 25, 2006 - 8:01 AM
        <<...the stereotype of the ugly hairy dyke might be based on people like me, but it's applied to all of us at some time or another...>>

        You don't appear to be ugly or hairy.

        Ugh. Too early in the morning to discuss gender politics. Let me drink my coffee first. ;)
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        • blue...
          bluejean
          offline 1

          Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

          Wed, October 25, 2006 - 2:06 PM
          ah, well, i was trying to make a point about the irrationality of mainstream beauty standards... i meant the stereotype of the ugly hairy lesbian is based on how bigots see butch dykes (or how they want to see them). in that view, all dykes are "too ugly" to land a man (because they're too butch to be real women), etc. however, not to put too fine a point on it, i am very hairy. :) i don't shave my legs or pits, and i have "chin hair" (as several observant young men pointed out to me with great hilarity the other day), which i don't think is visible in the pic cuz of the camera. i don't actually consider myself ugly, i was just going with some hyperbole for effect. :)
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      • Sonya
        Sonya
        offline 68

        Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

        Wed, October 25, 2006 - 2:10 PM
        > i think a lot of people who identify as dykes have encounters with it all the time,
        > even if they are more on the gender normative end of things.

        Well, the flip-side of it is that a lot of femmes have their run-ins with the Real Dyke™ Police...as if their being femme somehow makes their lesbianism suspect. The more "high femme", the more agida we often run into. It's not an excuse for poor behavior, but I do think it creates some rather unfortunate anti-butch/andro/FTM backlash.

        On a broader level, one thing that humans in general have never seemed to learn as a species is how to express a preference without running down the other options, e.g. "I don't like strawberry ice cream" vs. "strawberry ice cream sucks!". So, "I only find myself attracted to femmes (or butches)" turns into "femmes aren't Real Dykes™" or "butches aren't Real Women™". It's also a common and unfortunate defense mechanism for people who feel put upon for holding an identity of which they feel proud (woman, femme or butch, lesbian, etc.). Next thing you know, we've got our own internecine (and please pardon the metaphor) Battle of the "Sexes" between butches and femmes, which we really don't need.

        There are as many different ways of being a lesbian, a woman, a human as there are individuals being those things. We're all going to respond to what we respond to for all possible reasons (or none), and there's nothing wrong with finding "a" sexy to you and "b" well...not. It's even going to hurt feelings (when you're "a" and a woman you find incredibly alluring is only into "b", for instance), but it doesn't have to be insulting even if it can be very frustrating.

        I dunno. It was definitely a hard lesson for me to learn...I walked around very angry and very frustrated for a long time. All I can say is, try to be patient if you have to try to help someone understand when you think they're being dense or even insulting. We all have our own little xenophobias, after all, so even if the one being expressed to you is deeply personal to you, try to remember that you probably have (or at least had) some that someone else would take equally personally. You want to help people get better...not just fight with them, and push them even farther away from your point of view.

        OK, I'm done being fucking Yoda for now. ("mmMMMmmm...size matters not!" :-P )
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        • blue...
          bluejean
          offline 1

          Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

          Wed, October 25, 2006 - 2:38 PM
          >Well, the flip-side of it is that a lot of femmes have their run-ins with the Real Dyke™ Police...as if their being femme somehow makes their lesbianism suspect. It's not an excuse for poor behavior, but I do think it creates some rather unfortunate anti-butch/andro/FTM backlash.

          oh definitely. i know there are at least as many hurt feelings due to the Real Dyke police as the Real Woman police. i think the whole thing sucks. there's no excuse for beating each other up when we have enough problems with everyone else. i know there are butches/FTMs out there who are incredibly misogynistic, and i don't blame anyone for being pissed off about that. i've seen them in action (in one particular case the femme in question was my girlfriend and the jerk was an acquaintance of mine) and that kind of crap is disgusting and wrong. i just don't think it's acceptable to use those cases as a brush to tar the whole group with, which is part of what happened with that other thread.

          >All I can say is, try to be patient if you have to try to help someone understand when you think they're being dense or even insulting.

          i understand where you're coming from with this, and i think that's a noble goal, but it's not for me. i know everyone has their own assumptions and bigotries, including me, but i don't feel any great urge to teach anyone anything, except for the necessary lesson of "don't tread on me." i agree that getting bent out of shape because people are jerks is counterproductive (cuz there are a lot of jerks in the world and it's not going to change their minds), but i think there's value in standing up for yourself, even loudly and with energy. i'm honestly not interested in convincing anyone of anything. all i want is for people to be respectful, and if they're not going to do that then i'm going to call them on it. at the same time, i'm not wasting my emotional energy on it... reading that junk made me angry, sure, but it's not like i'm simmering away about it all the time. :) besides, i know people say things on the internet they wouldn't dream of saying to anybody's face.
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          • Sonya
            Sonya
            offline 68

            Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

            Wed, October 25, 2006 - 2:52 PM
            > i just don't think it's acceptable to use those cases as a brush to tar the whole
            > group with, which is part of what happened with that other thread.

            Agreed 100%.

            > i understand where you're coming from with this, and i think that's a noble goal, but it's not for me.
            > i know everyone has their own assumptions and bigotries, including me, but i don't feel any great
            > urge to teach anyone anything, except for the necessary lesson of "don't tread on me."

            I dunno...I mean, sure, let 'em know you find it insulting and why. All I'm saying is don't fight fire with gasoline, you know? Enough repetitions of "well, that's just a fucked-up and hurtful thing to say!" (w/o a "you're a total bitch" component) and maybe they'll get the message sooner or later.

            Or not...I dunno.

            People, I tell ya...almost enough to make ya wanna live in a cave sometimes.
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  • Loren
    Loren
    offline 67

    Re: hi and why do some dykes feel like they get to be the Real Woman police?

    Wed, April 4, 2007 - 11:15 AM
    Thank you.

    Like a few others, I'm new to this tribe and after reading some of the diatribe on the femme/femme thread I was ready to jump ship.

    ~Loren
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    • Kandi
      Kandi
      offline 37

      Lighten up!

      Thu, April 12, 2007 - 11:38 AM
      I am not trying to be mean, but why would anyone take the internet so seriously? I just can't get offended by someone else's post. People online aren't a good representation of the real world, nor should they have any bearing on your opinions and outlook on life. Most of the time I find the opinionated posters are just looking for attention and validation. They aren't really trying to enlighten you or change your mind about an issue. Hell, most of the time they are totally inarticulate and downright retarded. Maybe if the poster would have written a clever story about not being able to find a date because she is looking for a specific type of girl, then you wouldn't be knocking her. Instead, she wrote a little quip that put a negative taste in everyone's mouth. I think many (I didn't say all) lesbians take their sexuality too seriously. Maybe that's because we are constantly trying to break the stereotypes and cruelty that follows us on a daily basis; Maybe we are perpetuating the debate by being so adamant against labels and judgements. Go ahead, rip me a new one. I am sure I will conjure up some not so kind words from people here.
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      • Angel
        Angel
        online 99

        Re: Lighten up!

        Tue, April 17, 2007 - 9:24 AM

        In some ways the crap online can reflect real world crap.

        I recently had a lesbian tell me that she had gotten feedbaqck that
        dating a bisexual with a boyfriend made her not a lesbian!

        Funny, but wow, talk about strict roles and norms.

        I'll just take a moment to say butch women are so attractive.
        My (new-ish) butch is just so dreamy I could melt. yay!
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        • Kandi
          Kandi
          offline 37

          Dyke Rules

          Wed, April 18, 2007 - 8:42 AM
          Yeah, so many rules and regulations. I don't really understand them all. Why can't we just be ourselves instead of a stereotype or a definition?
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