Is there such a thing as a feminine woman only attracted to other feminine women? I am one, but I was wondering if there are any others out there...I'm lonely!
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SF Bay Area
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, July 30, 2006 - 5:14 PMThey say we fall in love within 15 mins of meeting someone. Looks first, mind second. So it seems to me it is far more logical for a lesbian to like a woman that looks feminine rather than a woman who does everything to look like a masculine..... presumably cos she is ashamed of her own gender. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Mon, July 31, 2006 - 11:44 AMYou say, it is far more logical for a woman to love a feminine counterpart, if she is a lesbian, and I agree. However, logic doesn't really play much of a role in who we ultimately feel attraction for, n'est-pas? I am discouraged because the vast majority of women I find appealing are not looking for anyone who is feminine in appearance; because virtually all of the couples I know are in "traditional" lesbian relationships mimicing in many respects, their hetero counterparts. I find this perplexing, but don't want to rock the boat, either.
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Mon, July 31, 2006 - 5:23 PMI'm one, too! :D
Believe me, it's one of the biggest reasons I have trouble getting dates sometimes...
*HUGS* -
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 2:19 PM<<I find appealing are not looking for anyone who is feminine in appearance; because virtually all of the couples I know are in "traditional" lesbian relationships mimicing in many respects, their hetero counterparts>>
That implies heteros like mates who look the same......apart from Brad and Angeiina...I dont know of any str8 that wants their man/woman to be more fem/masc than them.
But butch dykes I cannot compute.....if you want to be a man...get surgery already.....if you simply think looking like the male "stereotype" gives you more Kudos in life.....then....what a fucking attitude towards women....butch dyke is the new misogynist -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 2:32 PMWow, I have to admit being a bit surprised by your response. I'm neither butch, nor femme (though if someone was looking for a "femme" they would definitely pass me up), and I prefer to not use the labels and generally date women who are also "label free" but who are we to judge?
I've known some pretty "butch" women that in no way wanted to be a man. They are proud of the fact that they are women, with the breasts, hips and curves. They happen to be more comfortable dressed in traditionally men’s clothing and like "hard labor" or some such thing. Many tend to like to open doors and are more attracted to women that are a little softer. They like to romance a woman in a "traditional" sort of way. But, that being said, I've known many a butch who happens to like other butches. And, of the women I know (in my limited experience) most are not trying to "mimic" anything, but are doing/being what they feel most comfortable and happy with. And somehow I REALLY doubt that any of the butch women out there would agree that it's easier to get by looking like a man...even me with my short hair tends to get a lot of shit...it must be even harder for them. But why should they compromise who they are...for anyone?
My thought? Viva la difference! It's really silly to judge people by who they are attracted to. So I tend to prefer shorter women with dark eyes and tats, that doesn't mean I wouldn't find a tall, blue eyed woman with no tats ugly, I would just be less likely to be drawn to her...
I say there's room in the lesbian community for us all...no matter who you're attracted to, you'll find someone...and besides I'm sure there are plenty of "traditional dykes" who think it's weird for femmes to be attracted to each other...
Don't we all feel like it's hard to find "the right one" no matter who that is? If we're not in a relationship, it always feels a bit elusive...
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 2:32 PMfemme sisters,
as a femme who is attracted to butches, please allow me to clarify something. butch dykes don't necessarily want to be men. please don't mistake female masuclinity & deeply individual manifestations of that masculinity as being 1/2 way to male. trans-men are doing their thing, butches are doing theirs. i have no desire or love in my being for men but a brilliantly masucline woman is a genius counterpart to who i am. there is nothing stereotypical about a butch.
we could get into the performative nature of gender identity - i.e. do you want to open the pandora's box of how femininity can be construed as performance? just because i don't understand femmes who dig femmes doesn't mean i think ill of their choices, preferences or desires. bottom line, what & who you are attracted to is personal. and what underscores that statement even more is that we are all community & if we don't support each other, differences & all, no one else will.
xo -
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 3:11 PMCan I get back jawl when I am drunk? I am soooo much ruder then.....and I give into contempt way more easily.
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, February 2, 2007 - 8:07 PMI'm in total agreement.
Except the part of not understanding the attraction to femmes. I tend to dig masculine women, but a high femme intimidates the hell out of me and rocks my world all at the same time.
xoxo
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 10:02 PMWho says they want to be a man? maybe they are perfectly happy with how their vagina works and how it feels... Maybe they just feel like dressing masculine... The difference between trans-gender and trans-sexual...
Let's not gender police a lesbian forum.
as for the question on hand... I have another wrench. What if you FEEL more femme, but you unfortunatelly look butch. (i was curious how a bald head would feel, it had nothing to do with what i was trying to project, and it's not my fault i'm 5'10")
I don't really go for butch girls, I kinda like what i call "softball lesbians" (lesbians who are muscular active but still have feminine features and such) to girly lesbians. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 6:55 PMInteresting comments. I'll check back here again, maybe, soon. So far I have gained insight that butch girls aren't trying to imitate men, but express themselves as they naturally feel. I relate to that. Despite my feminine appearance, I'm dominant and take the "male" role in relationships. Anyhoo, getting back to the point: it is just a simple one - I have yet to meet any women who appear feminine who desire that in a partner...why? Am I hanging out at the wrong places, lol? I get around, but let's hear some suggestions on where I could encounter those girly girls! Oh, yes, and gender is largely performance, I agree! But let's also say that being a woman is tough and requires plenty of grit, style and poise. And it takes a lifetime to get it right. And to clarify, however you look on the outside, the job is the same. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Mon, August 7, 2006 - 5:03 PM
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Mon, August 7, 2006 - 11:06 PM
> I get around, but let's hear some suggestions on where I could encounter those girly girls! Oh, yes, and gender is largely performance, I agree!
How about here: www.femme2006.com/
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Tue, August 14, 2007 - 8:37 PMDITTO!
You will find her eventually! :)
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Thu, August 10, 2006 - 4:19 PMMaybe Butch women don't want to be men but I definitely feel like they are very uncomfortable with their sexuality. Not because they dress in a certain way, but because most of the Butch women that I know have the “No penetration" rule. I have to say that as a feminist it seems like a very bizarre ideology for a woman to feel that penetration in some way makes her "weaker". I talk to my lesbian friends about this all the time and they never really understand where I'm coming from. I personally don't understand why anyone would want to have a "traditional" relationship seeing as to how most male/female relationships are based on women being submissive. I would think that when two women get together the whole point would be to establish a relationship where both women are on equal footing. However in most of the lesbian relationships that I have observed this is not the case. One woman dominates and the other basically fulfills the same submissive role that she would have fulfilled if she were with a man. I know this doesn't apply to ALL butch women and ALL lesbian relationships but in my circle of friends it's usually the case. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 7:18 AMall due respect but i couldn't agree with you less.
are any of you with these observations butch? don't you think it's time all non-butches, & quite frankly, non-dykes stopped assuming how butches are, what they feel & what they want? why do we think it's ok to question what we presume to be their needs & desires? why do we think it's ok to question our impression of how they identify? honestly, if you really want to know, ask a room full of butches. i'd hope they'd tell you that to ask such questions is as absurd as somone questioning & making presumptions about you & what kind of a person you are.
why not just accept that butches are individuals? their identities are just as singular as our own, just as complex & layered. what is wrong with us that we can't respect or stand up for members of our community?
please, there are few things more important than community. we need to support each other & respect our so-called "differences." let's embrace how diverse our community is, for a change.
xo -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 8:20 AMYou are absolutely right. People should support their own communities; however you seem to feel like Butches don't stereotype people either. The very fact that someone has to create labels to describe their sexual orientation proves my point. You don't have to be a Butch or a lesbian to be able to accurately and objectively observe a particular culture. Who says I am not a lesbian or a butch? Just because I have chosen not to pigeon hole myself doesn't mean I am not. The fact is that even Butches assume things about Femmes. Secondly, I really don't think these questions are absurd. In order to define yourself and your community you have to ask questions. They may be absurd to you, but that does not make them absurd in general. People make assumption about me all the time the only difference is I have guts to actually discuss what they bring up instead regurgitating the same old "Lets respect each other" line. Respect is fine but there is nothing wrong with a good old heated debate. If people didn't ask these questions you wouldn't have gotten to feel the satisfaction of coming up with the response that you did. In the end incessant questioning leads to define solutions, so I say question on. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:18 AMthese "labels" were around long before most of us have been alive. use it or don't but don't judge those for whom those labels prove useful & significant. it's not about you. why, as one post wrote, "gender police a lesbian forum?"
sure, there's nothing wrong with observations. but observations certainly aren't the gospel, shouldn't be treated as such & it gets old when far too many observations are consistently based on assumption, not reality. what some people have written here seems barely to be based on real, intimate experience. so forgive me if i call bullsh*t on a bit of high-handed ignorance loosely veiled with "i don't get it" & "butches are trying to be x, y or z" & "nothing wrong with some healthy debate."
do you see a butch in here, questioning femme identity? most butches i know (some are my dearest friends & some i know rather intimately, thank you): BIG, unquestioning femme fans. & if you were butch, i'd have a hard time believing you'd be sparking this particular healthy debate. you can call this a debate when all sides are represented.
& respect, but you don't know me at all to gauge my satisfaction vis-a-vis responding to these various posts. frustration is more like it. i'm going to save the rest of my current "observations" and call it a day. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:39 AMWhere in my post did I call observations the gospel? No where. And since you consider yourself to be calling bullshit lets not forget that your shit stinks too. That being said let’s cut the chit chat shall we?
You say that observations aren't based on reality but reality in and of itself is purely objective. You (just like me) also aren't qualified to judge whether people's posts are based on real, intimate experiences or not. Again like I said before you can't really tell whether people on this post are Butches are not because Butch and Femme is a state of mind NOT a reality. You also aren't the only person in the world with "intimate" Butch friends and just because "labels" have been around before most of us have been alive doesn't mean that they should continue to exist. Genocide has been around since before many of us have been alive as well. Does that mean we should accept it?
If you have such a problem with ignorance then why don't you actually make an effort to teach people? Complaining and chastising people from your high horse only gets you so far. What makes you think that you are accurately representing all sides of the argument? Are you a Butch? If not then you, just like the rest of us are also spewing high "handed ignorance". -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:51 AMSome bottom needs to be taught a lesson........ -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 10:30 AMps, that bottom comment was hilarious;
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 9:57 AMyou're actually comparing labels to genocide? reality check?
i'll let you know how my shit smells, honey. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 10:04 AMI am comparing labels to genocide mainly because Genocide is always brought into effect due to the labels or stigmas that are used to determine one group of people to be inferior to the next.
Don't call me honey and it's perfectly obvious what your shit smells like. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 10:24 AMlabels are also used by groups to define themselves. i.e. the reappropriation of the word "dyke" - previously negative nomenclature - by the dyke community as a positive label. which is their choice. and again, not about you. let it go.
i'm not butch, i just like them. a lot. i don't question the multitudinous aspects of butch nature, i appreciate it. it's beautiful. and my knowledge of butches comes from a place of real experience, not conjecture. i'm happy to share what i do know about them & would warmly welcome an actual butch into any debate or, in your case, diatribe regarding them. what i won't do is sit idly by and stay quiet while other people preach their one-sided ignorance - yes, ignorance - as though speaking from a place of thoughtfulness & respect. it gets old. fast.
yeah, honey was used ironically. i know my sh*t. so call me what you will, i don't really care about your opinion of me, per se - i find it humorous. net-to-net, just please try to be more responsible about what you do & don't know regarding the community.
peace. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 11:01 AMI have to say you are the most fun person on this whole tribe!! I never, not once said that labels are about me. I am perfectly aware that they are about other people. I do however, distinctly remember saying that my opinions applied to MY Friends. You, in all your opinionated glory (which I really admire because it makes for a swell time, hence this little chat) assumed that I was speaking about all Butches. If you would be so kind as to scroll up to my original post you would see that statement at the end of rant.
I am all for women exploring all sides of their sexuality and embracing their masculine energy. There's nothing wrong with that. I was simply saying that embracing what’s masculine about your being while ignoring the more feminine side of you is a bit of problem. Let's take one of my Butch friends for example, we'll call her Sam. Sam has a no penetration rule during sex, and it has now escalated into her wanting to get an operation to be a man. I have no problem with transgender rights but I do have a problem with it when the desire stems from the belief that being a woman in some way makes you "weak" and that by being more like a guy it makes you stronger than the average everyday woman. I really don't want you to leave this chat thinking that I hate Butches. I don't. I do however hate any ideology that assumes that the more feminine you are, the weaker you are. All Butches might not feel that way but most of My Butch friends do. Hence my view point that there is some female identity conflict in their life styles. Women are strong and courageous no matter what "label" is used to define them but we as women have an obligation to never forget that I strength comes from the very fact that we are women. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Fri, August 11, 2006 - 11:40 AMthis is important: i don't think perceived personal weakness is remotely a factor in the struggles of gender identity. as women, we all struggle in our bodies. and in many respects, the penetration so-called issue stops becoming one once a femme melts the stone, as it were (or so many of us like to think). or a butch can melt another butch, depending on what a person's attraction is. so where's the argument? all that said, "no penetration" isn't considered an issue to those who'd prefer not to. so why should anyone else take issue with it, you see?
additionally, submission & domination are both very powerful, but neither more than the other. oddly enough, i can think of a lot of butches who believe femme bottoms have all the power, actually. i believe it's a balance. there's also butch bottoms & high femme tops. and about a bazillion other facets but there's hardly enough room to get into all of them (i.e. femmes who like femmes, go sisters!). let's face it, sexuality is enormously complex & deeply personal, which is the primary reason i get SO annoyed with & reply to generalizations & pinpointing of presumed short-comings, however well-intended.
ps, i think your friend is trans, not butch. that's a whole other discussion. i strongly recommend getting your hands on the documentary film "boy i am" by sam feder for some insight into that subject matter. it premiered at the newfest & screened in outfest & frameline. i was interviewed as a femme perspective on trans-visibility. through the process, interview & otherwise, i really got an education, from the filmmakers, as well as butch & trans friends alike.
best. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, August 13, 2006 - 4:04 AMI've been following the posts here, and just got back from the second day of the femme conference. there are a number of personal observations I'd like to make. One thing that really impressed me was the diversity of voices, visions, sexual and personal expression within the community; I had not observed that at all when I first encountered women in the community, back in the late 80's and early 90's.
Back then, it seemed there was a dress code, and with it, some very rigid choices and assumptions about roles. This, coupled with my other observations about the community, made me very uncomfortable. Discourse back then was not at all free. There was some very heavy-handed political and sexual academic discourse that was the "party line" and you had to tow it religiously. You wore flannel and leather or you wore ultra-feminine dresses. You were assertive or you were passive. You were not to challenge these roles. Virtually all of the women I met during this period had been sexually assaulted, either by their fathers, brothers or someone else close to them when they were young, and most if not all of them were addicted to alchohol, hard drugs or both, or were in recent recovery from same. There was a lot of frantic and chaotic hooking up, and there was lots of drama, drama, drama. It felt so unhealthy that I just backed away from the whole scene.
Things have changed a lot and it was evident at the conference. There are so many different sorts of women and many ideas are being debated; difficult issues are being raised and dealt with in a courageous and mature fashion that invites different points of view. I am very proud to be a part of a community such as the one we have become.
I still didn't find anyone to hook up with, though. I loved watching everyone at the 12 Galaxies event - and tried to smile at as many people as i could (I like being friendly). it was a beautiful crowd, beautiful in its breathtaking diversity, vision and courage. But I just couldn't connect with anyone on, you know, a sexual level. One very hot young woman actually came up to me and told me that she was really attracted to me, then gave me a fake phone number. That really hurt to be toyed with like that. I guess that she liked knowing people desired her, or something. I'm rather short in stature and actually really like tall women (well, most women are taller than me anyway). does anyone have any idea where I ought to go to find people who will find me attractive? I'm stumped. -
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, August 13, 2006 - 1:29 PMGrow up you all. This talk of choices, roles, rights et al is so sad. I do not care if you fuck donkeys (why would I) ..so long as they are willing donekys...."communities", "rights", "equality, "gay rights",
ok, have it ..all....when a str8 pride march doesnt have you writing to congress then I will know equality is here.
Till then, try to make it in the world on your own merit...
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Mon, August 14, 2006 - 10:14 AMDon't get me wrong here, I am a youngin but didn't most lesbians wear vests and jeans with feathered hair......aka.......stand up comic?
"This, coupled with my other observations about the community, made me very uncomfortable. Discourse back then was not at all free. There was some very heavy-handed political and sexual academic discourse that was the "party line" and you had to tow it religiously. You wore flannel and leather or you wore ultra-feminine dresses. You were assertive or you were passive. "
This isn't discourse if it is still an issue in our own community, it must be hate within it between us, if you are femme or butch regardless, you call your self lesbian, then you will be identified with each other. If you don't want to be, then say you like people.
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Wed, August 16, 2006 - 4:24 PMIf you are sexually attracted to women then you are homosexual...it is not a "cause", a "movement", a "crusade", a "right" or even a "way of life".....it simply "is"....when all str8 women that have a penchant for e.g. jocks wear a label saying "I am str8 and am sexually attracted to anything with a six pack that can throw a ball" I will maybe accept crew cut, body pierced, doc martin, chino wearing, women sporting weights on their genitals as "speaking for lesbians"...until then they are (imo) as sad and streotyped as "WAGS" .. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sat, August 19, 2006 - 8:45 AMIf it really just as you say ......"it simply "is".......then why do you need str8 validation to be in a relationship with a dyke..........don't forget.....this is the DYKE tribe......go make a femme femme tribe and you can have a forum about how we all just fit your sterotypes.........I really can't believe you are still posting to this thread........can't you read? -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sat, August 19, 2006 - 2:21 PM
Most people would I.D. me a feminine/femme person.
There are SO MANY types of beautiful women out there, but the ones that tend
to catch my eye and make me want to touch them (all over!) tend towards
androgynous and butch.
My experience is NOT they don't want to be touched or penetrated, in fact
my experience is that they have LOVED it, and I have actually fisted a
few women that would have been labeled as butch by most, whether
they choose that label or not.
To accuse butches of wanting to "be like men" tells me that the the
person saying that is the one stuck in the dichotomous het-paradigm,
not the butches in questions. There are many ways to be in the world
and women should have access to the full range without having to be
accused of "not being women" or not wanting to be women". I see
such statements to be part of a woman-hating culture, i.e. you are
only a good woman if you fit somebody's little mold or pigion hole.
I am also a trans- positive person,and butch and trans issues are different
although (for all of us) identity is fluid and may change over time.
Bottom line: people need to be allowed to be theit full whole self,
and there is far too much judgement!
Back to Femme-Femme loving:
I think if you want to connect with another femme, be prepared to
be very forward and initiating!
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, August 20, 2006 - 11:59 AMAnd from the looks of your profile I am gonna stereotype you as a straight........ -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, August 20, 2006 - 12:00 PMMolly that is......reference the below post.
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Wed, August 23, 2006 - 3:45 PM<<I really can't believe you are still posting to this thread..>>
Gosh, if you don't believe that I don't dare to think what you "can't believe" about god, santa, WMD's in Iraq, Jake Gyllenhaals sexuality, Ellens talent and the existence of any coherent American foreign policy......
...you really aught to believe more...
<<you can have a forum about how we all just fit your sterotypes>>
this one is doing very nicely, ty
..<<can't you read?>>
alas.....yes... -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Wed, August 23, 2006 - 6:03 PMBoo, go away you evil femme, and go make your own tribe.....
hate to think what you really think about aids bet you agree with Deusberg and all that jazz......
or wait you are just a young liberal without a entrourage.....or a ticket to burningman......
as for all that "if you don't believe that I don't dare to think what you "can't believe""......
heck ya you do.....you are still posting!!!!!!!!
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Unsu...
Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Wed, August 23, 2006 - 6:17 PMStop flirting Sara, sorry, but you're a bit too shrill for my tastes.. -
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sat, August 26, 2006 - 11:28 AMman, people sure bitch a lot here.
it makes me wonder why i date women sometimes..
how 'bout this:
"I want to like someone who i find attractive."
"I want them to find me attractive."
"I want to have sexual relations with said person and who finds me mutually attractive."
in conclusion...maybe everyone needs to get laid and we'd all be a lil happier
=^.^=
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Re: Femmes and Femmes?
Sun, February 18, 2007 - 1:05 PM**Maybe Butch women don't want to be men but I definitely feel like they are very uncomfortable with their sexuality. Not because they dress in a certain way, but because most of the Butch women that I know have the “No penetration" rule.**
I know I came into this topic way late, but I can assure you from my point of view and from that of my other dyke friends that we are not uncomfortable with our sexuality.
I am very comfortable with who I am and have been for a number of years. I have the no penitration rule for one reason only. It hurts! Why do something that is painful in negitive way when there are far better ways to enjoy life and loving. Which brings me to a question no one has ever answered for me. If we all enjoy loving women so much then what is the big deal with the fake penises and other such stuff?
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